The Untold Story of Mariner: Immorality and Witchcraft in the Western Seas

The Mariner Immoral Witch of the West is a fascinating character that combines elements of both immorality and witchcraft. The main idea is that the Mariner is depicted as a morally corrupt individual, while also possessing supernatural powers associated with witchcraft. In the famous poem "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the Mariner is introduced as a sailor who embarks on a journey with his crew. However, his actions throughout the poem reveal his immoral nature. He ruthlessly kills an innocent albatross, believing it to be a bad omen, without any justification. This act shows a complete disregard for the sanctity of life and establishes the Mariner as an immoral character.

Namora, Namorita, Marinna, Loa, Black Bolt, Llyra

As are things like blood rheology, like the amount of blood oxygenation in the systems of the body, which allows marine mammals to make those great deep dives in crushing depths. That being said, and coming back to the idea of Namor making people uncomfortable, we all know everyone is fine with Namor hating the majority white SHIELD, Avengers, the USA etc, but what happens when you make him face parts of the world that are not that.

This act shows a complete disregard for the sanctity of life and establishes the Mariner as an immoral character. Furthermore, the Mariner's actions lead to a series of supernatural events, solidifying his association with witchcraft. After killing the albatross, the Mariner and his crew become stranded in a state of perpetual torment.

Thread: IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2023

Yes. But I think they're busy right now with Namor Week. Of course if they want to do one later, that's cool too.

Okay, for reference, I counted the 'panels' of Who Is Namor Infinity Comic, which was like a super condensed Saga of Subby oneshot that was written by Ralph Macchio. It had 25 "panels" stacked on top of each other / fading into each other.

I also know that pitches / short stories, like no more than 8 comic pages, are ideal.

I'd love to even just hear some of your own headcanon ideas, you don't share that type of thing much. Whereas I'm always like "HERE'S WHAT I THINK!" lol

I'd love to even just hear some of your own headcanon ideas, you don't share that type of thing much. Whereas I'm always like "HERE'S WHAT I THINK!" lol

LOL! Poor Doombot. But we love hearing what you think. I'm still playing around with some ideas for the Infinity Comics script.

As far as my own head canon, I think I've mentioned most of them, scattered over the threads, but here's a few off the top of my head:

Namor and the Atlanteans have echolocation, lateral lines, and some sort of bio-electric abilities.

Fraction's retcon about Fen, McKenzie, and Nemo should be eradicated.

Nothing in the Golden Age actually occurred in continuity, unless it shows up in modern continuity, i.e. starting with the Silver Age.

Attuma is not an Atlantean.

Namor is a tech genius.

Namor doesn't like politics, but can play with the best.

Namor didn't flood the entire planet in the 40s.

First Line never occurred.

Namor's pre-Silver Age amnesia is on the sliding timescale and therefore not longer than a year.

Namor is long over Sue.

Namor doesn't have a blood imbalance.

Namor isn't shooting blanks.

Vashti is alive.

Kamar isn't really Namor's son.

I've no idea what the deal is with Wave, but I think she should be dealing with Lemuria.

Namor has and uses tech to counter water deprivation.

Everything in Jason Aaron's run involving Namor is an AU or should be eradicated.

Problems that need to be fixed.

Betty Dean's age

Namora, Namorita, Marinna, Loa, Black Bolt, Llyra

LOL! Poor Doombot. But we love hearing what you think. I'm still playing around with some ideas for the Infinity Comics script.

As far as my own head canon, I think I've mentioned most of them, scattered over the threads, but here's a few off the top of my head:

Namor and the Atlanteans have echolocation, lateral lines, and some sort of bio-electric abilities.

Fraction's retcon about Fen, McKenzie, and Nemo should be eradicated.

Nothing in the Golden Age actually occurred in continuity, unless it shows up in modern continuity, i.e. starting with the Silver Age.

Attuma is not an Atlantean.

Namor is a tech genius.

Namor doesn't like politics, but can play with the best.

Namor didn't flood the entire planet in the 40s.

First Line never occurred.

Namor's pre-Silver Age amnesia is on the sliding timescale and therefore not longer than a year.

Namor is long over Sue.

Namor doesn't have a blood imbalance.

Namor isn't shooting blanks.

Vashti is alive.

Kamar isn't really Namor's son.

I've no idea what the deal is with Wave, but I think she should be dealing with Lemuria.

Namor has and uses tech to counter water deprivation.

Everything in Jason Aaron's run involving Namor is an AU or should be eradicated.

Problems that need to be fixed.

Betty Dean's age

Namora, Namorita, Marinna, Loa, Black Bolt, Llyra

What's First Line?

Hasn't Vashti died a few times?

Can you explain your "Problems" list?

What's First Line?

Hasn't Vashti died a few times?

Can you explain your "Problems" list?

I'm sorry, I should have said, the whole Lost Generation series, which featured First Line.

It was a retcon by John Byrne (him again. ) and Roger Stern trying to fill in the era after the 40s and then treating the 60s - 80s like they needed to be filled in. It was very confusing, as it involved time travel and alternate universes, and they published the comics backwards. Like the first issue was actually numbered #12. Namor part was him having amnesia and serving Yellow Claw.

I don't think Vashti has died before. There was some question about the Hulk Sub-Mariner 1998 Annual, but I don't think we saw him actually die.

My Problems List is mostly things that need to be expanded on or some consistent groundwork laid.

Since Betty Dean's birthday is fixed by her participation in WWII, her age just isn't supported by the sliding timeline, much like Peggy Carter. When she was reintroduced in the Silver Age she would have been around 50? With the sliding timeline, she would now have to be 90?. How is a 90 year old woman supposed to be the guardian of Nita? Or do anything she did in her reintroduction to the MU? She dies throwing herself between a blaster shot and Namor in SVTU. At this rate, she won't be physically able to do that, and she'll have simply have accidentally fallen in the way. smh

The people are characters that are in limbo, or whose relationships with Namor and Atlantis isn't defined, or are not being used at all. Llyra needs to be return to being a viable rogue for Namor instead of some sort magical artifact / abstract. The whole betrayal of Black Bolt needs to be explained and fixed. Namor has pretty consistently had a friendly relationship with the BB and the Inhumans.

Revive or establish Namor's supporting cast. We don't need completely new, practically nameless council members and warlords etc.

Lemuria is the second power under the ocean. Why is it completely a mess? We don't even know who is ruling it.

Also forgot for my Head Canon:

Eradicate Neal Adams' First X-Men.

Ignore parts of Zdarsky's Invaders, mostly the crap with Xavier.

Last edited by Reviresco; 04-07-2023 at 12:50 AM .

From Kieron Gillen and Alessandro Vitti Immoral X-Men 3.

1000 years in the future Namor and Emma are still dancing … sort of. It’s a Sinister Clone of Namor and a Sinister Clone of Emma. Sinister Sinister Emma is Empress of the Red Diamond. Namor is the Imperator of the Drowned Worlds and Sire of the Knight Consorts. Not sure if that means sired the knights or is lord of the knights … or both. And this looks like a 7th clone of Sinister Namor?

I don’t know what is exactly going on here, as I’m very much behind on my X-Men books.

Okay this stuff is interesting. I want to play.

I agree with your ideas about the Golden Age. For the most part, the Golden Age is too silly or wacky to have happened in canon. I agree that unless evens are referenced or shown in stories after the start of the Silver age, they didn't happen. I've always liked the idea that the Golden Age comic exist IN the MU and are zany stories that were loosely based on real events of real people like Cap & Namor.

I also agree that Namor is or should be much more of a thinker than he's shown to be. We know he's someone who is a creative, an artist who sculpts etc, and I would see him as someone like one of the Renaissance masters, he very much enjoys art, engineering, architecture, technology and creating things in general. Unlike men like Stark or Reed, Namor does not get to indulge in these interests as his main focus is being a monarch, which has been an endless line of disasters and drama.

Namor and the Atlanteans should NOT have gills or lateral lines, as they are not fish nor are they descendants of fish. If you want to add aquatic adaptations to the Atlanteans so they seem as if they evolved to life in the sea, rather than just people who breath water, it's better to look at the many adaptations of marine mammals. Not fish. Echolocation is a good example. As are things like blood rheology, like the amount of blood oxygenation in the systems of the body, which allows marine mammals to make those great deep dives in crushing depths.

Attuma was born to one of the nomadic tribes, not Atlanteans. He's a genetic freak, born to a slave woman and had to battle for power and dominance his entire life.

The amnesia was for no more then a year. There are untold stories to be explored in the years between the end of the War and whenever Johnny Storm finds Namor in NYC.

I agree again, Namor has no blood imbalance, he's not some bipolar or schizophrenic, nor is he infertile. To me, as he ages, his powers increase or continue to develop. His strength and speed grow as his susceptibility to water deprivation decreases. He also has low level telepathy or is an empath. Which also has the ability to develop, if Namor ever chooses focus on or train.

Kamar is not his child, but Marrina's children were his. (and two of them are still out there, mwuhaha)

Thakorr is dead. He died in Atlantis and he was not made into a ridiculous, badly designed, vampire king. If that story must exist, they were simply lying to anger Namor. Ancient aquatic vampires is not a horrible idea, but no Thakorr, no Dracula. Just no.

Dorma is dead. As much as we all love her, she's dead. Her death also gave us a great villain. In making new Namor stories, he needs to be allowed to move on, no digging up more dead loved ones ffs. *cough*Thakorr*cough*Fen*Marrina*cough*Namora*coug h*

If Vashti is dead, he isn't really. Killing and/or bringing back dead established characters for dramatic effect is so tiresome. Vashti needs to be left alone as the constant representative of the people to Namor, his conscience when ruling.

Namor needs an established ruling supporting cast, Vashti among them. Nameless councils and priests don't help anything. Part of this is that you need an established understanding of how Atlantean government works. Right off the bat I'd create a permanent Imperial Palace, that doesn't change with every artist, (like Avengers mansion or the Baxter Building) and it has an also permanent palace guard, with a Palace Captain that is known as the leader. I'd also create a "City Commander" with the role of protection and defence of the city. Andromeda may be a good fit for one of these roles. I'd also revisit the idea of a "Peacelord" which Namor bestowed upon Andromeda in the 90's run. What exactly is a Warlord and what exactly is a Peacelord? Are Warlords like regional governors? Or are they just literal military generals? The former is more interesting.

Unlike our world, Atlantis sees no separation between science, magic and religion. The centres of learnings in Atlantean society are all called "temples". Even in the 60's run there are brief showings of the "Temple of Science" which I always found super interesting. Their great universities are all temples. Education is deeply mixed with magic and worship. The "Temple of Sciences", "Temple of Histories", "Temples of Lore & Mysteries", "Temple of Alchemies", "Temple of Engineering", "Temple of Sorcery", "Temple of Warfare" etc etc

Whatever happened to Lemuria after Attuma, Llyra is involved. I'd actually have her as their current monarch in another form, or working to take the throne as an advisor role, like Vashti. Eventually I would give Lemuria to Llyra and have her be a nightmare to Namor and Atlantis as a powerful rival monarch with a kingdom at her disposal that has never kneeled to Atlantis.

I would set in motion storylines that bring about the return of both Suma-Ket and Naga.

With a more strongly established Atlantis, and the revelation that Namor's abilities continue to develop, like diminished water dependancy, greater speed and strength and being fertile, the elites begin to push for Namor to take a wife (or wives) and give the empire an heir.

Namor really needs to have an environmental slant. He always has in a way, but the threats that face the ocean from human exploitation and pollution simply cannot be overstated. I know there has always been a segment of readers who hear this stuff and roll their eyes. Feeling "environmental" stories are like some "agenda" leaning type storytelling, like having comic book characters "say no to drugs" etc, but you really can't have an ocean based hero and not have these issues be faced. This also brings up the reality of Namor facing off against countries and peoples who are not Western. People are very comfortable making Western countries and Western people (Europeans) into villains, but the reality is the overwhelming majority of all waste and garbage being dumped into the ocean is from Asia. The Philippines, Indonesia, China and India, and so on. Many of the same countries are the same leaders in overfishing and exploitation. Namor would have to face these nations and peoples imo, and whatever his actions would be, those nations would undoubtedly not respond well. I could easily see China lab-creating a super-powered being to counter Namor. That being said, and coming back to the idea of Namor making people uncomfortable, we all know everyone is fine with Namor hating the majority white SHIELD, Avengers, the USA etc, but what happens when you make him face parts of the world that are not that? It would certainly expand the MU with new characters, both allies and enemies, in under-explored parts of the world.

Most of the weird, silly or bad storylines and retcons over the years would simply be best ignored imo.

They are surrounded by a ghostly ship, inhabited by Death and Life-in-Death, who engage in a game for their souls. This element of the supernatural, combined with the Mariner's immoral actions, creates a sense of unease and highlights his connection to witchcraft. The Mariner's journey serves as a moral allegory, illustrating the consequences of his immoral behavior. Through his encounters with supernatural forces, the Mariner learns the importance of repentance and redemption. At the end of the poem, he finds salvation by appreciating the beauty of nature and blessing the water snakes that come to his rescue. This transformation reflects a shift from his immoral witch-like nature to a more righteous and compassionate character. Overall, the Mariner Immoral Witch of the West is a complex character that embodies both immorality and witchcraft. His actions throughout the poem highlight his disregard for ethics, while his encounters with supernatural forces reinforce his association with witchcraft. However, the Mariner's journey ultimately leads to redemption and transformation, showcasing the power of repentance and the triumph of righteousness over immorality..

Reviews for "The Enigma of Mariner: Immorality, Witchcraft, and Westward Expeditions"

1. John - 1/5 stars - I found "Mariner immoral witch of the west" to be a complete disappointment. The plot was confusing and poorly developed, and the characters were one-dimensional. The writing lacked depth and the dialogue felt forced. Overall, the book failed to captivate my interest and left me feeling unsatisfied. I would not recommend it to anyone looking for a compelling and well-written story.

2. Sarah - 2/5 stars - I had high hopes for "Mariner immoral witch of the west" based on its intriguing title, but unfortunately, it fell short of my expectations. The pacing of the story was uneven, with long stretches of boredom interrupted by abrupt and confusing plot twists. The characters felt flat and their actions were often inconsistent. The writing style was also lackluster, lacking the descriptive beauty I was hoping for. While the concept had potential, the execution left me unimpressed.

3. Emily - 2/5 stars - I tried to give "Mariner immoral witch of the west" a chance, but I struggled to connect with the story or the characters. The plot was convoluted and hard to follow, often leaving me feeling lost and frustrated. The dialogue felt forced and unnatural, making it difficult to believe in the interactions between the characters. Additionally, the pacing was slow, and the book lacked the excitement and tension I was hoping for. Overall, I found it to be a mediocre read that failed to engage me.

Tales of the Mariner: Immorality and Witchcraft in Folklore